Tuesday, September 27, 2005
Spider-man 3 Bad Guys?
I'm getting worried about Spider-man 3.
Before you read any further, you should probably know that I'm a comic-book geek as well as a film geek and I take this stuff far too seriously. If you didn't read that sentence, nod your head and say "Yeah, me too," then the rest of this post will likely get on your nerves.
Anyway, I'm worried about Spider-man 3. I have a number of reasons.
First of all, Spider-man 2 was far better than I thought it would be. Most people I've talked to feel that way. Maybe it set the bar too high. I hope I don't go into the third film with unreasonable hopes.
Secondly, they are apparently going the "two villains" route this time around. That was the beginning of the end with the original Batman franchise, and doesn't bode well for Spidey. If the movies focus too much on loud, flashy, two-dimensional villains, they end up kinda sorta sucking.
Thirdly, Kirsten Dunst has let the cat out of the bag regarding which villains will be in Spider-man 3, and who among the confirmed Spider-man 3 cast members will be playing them:
Eeeeehhhh. Well…… Um, Ok. Eeeehhh.
If you don't keep up with the Spidey comics, here's what you need to know in a nutshell:
No kidding. They'll have to re-write the whole Venom origins story. My buddy Brian has the best idea… just have the movie begin with Venom committing some heinous crime, have Spidey show up and say something like "Venom?!! Not YOU again!!" and go right into the action, no explanation offered.
Oh, yeah, Venom is plain evil… but, of course, he sees himself as Spider-man's victim. He thinks he's the good guy, and has been known to go the vigilante route in the comics, trying to prove his point. I guess anything can happen in this third movie. They could even use the Ultimate Spider-man alternative origins story to explain how the Venom character came to be and give him a whole new drive and personality.
One last thing… Spider-man 2 clearly set Harry up to put on the Goblin's costume, but like a lot of people, I hope they go with the Hobgoblin instead. I don't ever want to see that awful Green Goblin costume from the first movie again.
OK, I know that some of the folks who red film geeks from time to time are comic geeks, too... so what do you guys think? I hope someone can sell me on an optimistic frame of mind, because right now, I really think that Spidey 3 looks iffy at best. ¶ 9:13 PM
I'm getting worried about Spider-man 3.
Before you read any further, you should probably know that I'm a comic-book geek as well as a film geek and I take this stuff far too seriously. If you didn't read that sentence, nod your head and say "Yeah, me too," then the rest of this post will likely get on your nerves.
Anyway, I'm worried about Spider-man 3. I have a number of reasons.
First of all, Spider-man 2 was far better than I thought it would be. Most people I've talked to feel that way. Maybe it set the bar too high. I hope I don't go into the third film with unreasonable hopes.
Secondly, they are apparently going the "two villains" route this time around. That was the beginning of the end with the original Batman franchise, and doesn't bode well for Spidey. If the movies focus too much on loud, flashy, two-dimensional villains, they end up kinda sorta sucking.
Thirdly, Kirsten Dunst has let the cat out of the bag regarding which villains will be in Spider-man 3, and who among the confirmed Spider-man 3 cast members will be playing them:
"We have really great people though as the villains in this film, Thomas Haden Church and Topher Grace -- Venom and Sandman," said Dunst, who plays Mary Jane Watson in the Spidey films…. "Maybe I wasn't supposed to say that," she added before reversing her claim. "It's the other way around. You're right," she conceded to a journalist.
Eeeeehhhh. Well…… Um, Ok. Eeeehhh.
If you don't keep up with the Spidey comics, here's what you need to know in a nutshell:
This is Venom. He's huge. He's a psychopath. He's one of Spidey's archiest of arch enemies. He is the only villain who can stealthy sneak past Spider-man's spider-senses. Venom is really two bad-guys in one… one is Eddie Brock, a former professional rival of Peter Parker's, the other is an alien life-form who hates Pete because it came to Earth with Pete after the Secret Wars as his new black suit, and Pete rejected it when he realized it was alive and trying to control him (if you have to ask, you don't need to know). Anyway, Venom is my favorite Spider-man villain, and I've waited for a long time, hoping he'd be done right in a Spider-man movie.
It seems that he'll be played by Topher Grace.
I didn't even know who Topher Grace was until his name popped up in the Spider-man 3 cast. For a week or so I thought his name was "Gopher" something. Anyway, he's one of the kids on That 70's Show. He's the one circled in the picture below:
Just for reference, this is Venom's relative size, compared to Spider-man:
Right off the bat, I'd say this doesn't look promising. I know they can CGI just about everything these days, but keep in mind that Eddie Brock seethes with hatred for Peter Parker. I can't imagine Gopher seething with anything other than niceness.
The picture above is Thomas Haden Church. He played the lunkhead mechanic on the old Wings sitcom, and he was the lunkhead wine taster in Sideways. Thomas Haden Church gives good lunkhead. He'll be playing Sandman, apparently. More people are familiar with him because Sandman has been a Spidey foe for years and years.
This is the Sandman:
I'm OK with the idea of Church as the Sandman, I guess… and, of course, his character will have to be mostly CGI if they give him the powers he has in the comics… so we'll see what happens.
Of course, it could be that the roles are reversed. Church as Venom and Gopher as Sandman. I don't like that idea, either. I just don't like Gopher being in this movie. He seems like such a lightweight.
My idea as far as casting Venom was Woody Harrelson. If you've seen Natural Born Killers or Wag The Dog, you know that Harrelson can pull of the psychotic thing really well. Plus, he's the right size, and he's appropriately weird in a comical, menacing way. I just thought he'd be right for the role.
Sandman? I dunno. Maybe Bruce Willis.
Church might be fine, though.
I've been wrong in the past, though. I thought that Michael Keaton would be an awful Batman, and he was the best in the role until Christian Bale came along. I thought Tommy Lee Jones would be a great Harvey Dent, and he was terrible. I thought that Willem Dafoe would have been great as the Green Goblin, and he might have been if his costume hadn't prevented him from emoting while in the Goblin character.
Heck, Topher Grace might blow me away.
And maybe Dunst is wrong about all of it. Who knows?
Just a brief roundup from other blogs:
The Movieblog: Now, keep in mind that this COULD just be a publicity stunt. I doubt Kristen Dunst is that much of a fool that her bosses main rule (don't reveal the villains) is one that she's forget. Also keep in mind that she hasn't read the script yet. In general what she's saying sounds credible... but I won't die of shock if I find out she was just lying…. One thing is for sure. If Grace is Venom, then there won't be any body suit like there was for The Thing in Fantastic Four. Venom will be full blown CGI all the way. As a former Special Effects guy I'm really curious to see how well they'll pull that off.
Films, Gaming and Life: I must admit that I’m a little surprised. Although this rumour has been circulating for a little while now, Sam Raimi has always shown distaste for the character of Venom and also the ending of Spiderman 2 hinted at a return of the Green Goblin, or perhaps Hobgoblin. There is also the fact that the backstory for Venom i.e. the symbiotic spidey suit, is quite long and fitting this in together with yet another villain, seems quite a lot. They will either need to condense the whole Venom story a lot or change it considerably.
No kidding. They'll have to re-write the whole Venom origins story. My buddy Brian has the best idea… just have the movie begin with Venom committing some heinous crime, have Spidey show up and say something like "Venom?!! Not YOU again!!" and go right into the action, no explanation offered.
See and Say:: …it will be nice for Spidey to square off against a villain who's just plain evil for once… Since the film is still in pre-production, it will be a while before we get to see it, but I'm optimistic that the third time out will be as good as the first if Raimi and co. don't fall prey to the Shumacher syndrome.
Oh, yeah, Venom is plain evil… but, of course, he sees himself as Spider-man's victim. He thinks he's the good guy, and has been known to go the vigilante route in the comics, trying to prove his point. I guess anything can happen in this third movie. They could even use the Ultimate Spider-man alternative origins story to explain how the Venom character came to be and give him a whole new drive and personality.
One last thing… Spider-man 2 clearly set Harry up to put on the Goblin's costume, but like a lot of people, I hope they go with the Hobgoblin instead. I don't ever want to see that awful Green Goblin costume from the first movie again.
OK, I know that some of the folks who red film geeks from time to time are comic geeks, too... so what do you guys think? I hope someone can sell me on an optimistic frame of mind, because right now, I really think that Spidey 3 looks iffy at best. ¶ 9:13 PM
Comments:
See Batman Begins for the right way to do two villains in a comic book movie. (See Superman II for the right way to handle four, but BB is the superior example)
See In Good Company to see Topher act. I plan to see Traffic at some point as well to see if that shows a darker side.
Topher looks so much like Tobey I was expecting Ben Reilly, but this could be a good twist instead. Why shouldn't the anti-Spidey be an anti-Parker as well? And while I haven't read the Ultimates books, I think Brock is Peter's age in that continuity.
I don't mind Church as Sandman, though I thought sure he'd be Brock. Sandman I don't think could carry a whole movie, so he may be a recurring threat for Spidey to deal with as the film cuts back and forth to Topher's origin story.
Raimi is a comic geek too. He hasn't let us down yet. You want to talk worry, let's talk about X3....
See In Good Company to see Topher act. I plan to see Traffic at some point as well to see if that shows a darker side.
Topher looks so much like Tobey I was expecting Ben Reilly, but this could be a good twist instead. Why shouldn't the anti-Spidey be an anti-Parker as well? And while I haven't read the Ultimates books, I think Brock is Peter's age in that continuity.
I don't mind Church as Sandman, though I thought sure he'd be Brock. Sandman I don't think could carry a whole movie, so he may be a recurring threat for Spidey to deal with as the film cuts back and forth to Topher's origin story.
Raimi is a comic geek too. He hasn't let us down yet. You want to talk worry, let's talk about X3....
I like MCF's idea, Topher as the anti-Peter ala Venom as the anti-Spidey. However, what does scare me is your statement that Raimi doesn't like the Venom character. I'm concerned that if this is the case, he may really screw up the whole dynamic.
In the Ultimates, I believe Brock is much closer to to Parker's age.
BTW, the new Ultimate Spider-man game, while being too much like Spiderman 2 in the Spidey scenes, is an absolute blast when you get to play Venom. It's great stuff!
In the Ultimates, I believe Brock is much closer to to Parker's age.
BTW, the new Ultimate Spider-man game, while being too much like Spiderman 2 in the Spidey scenes, is an absolute blast when you get to play Venom. It's great stuff!
MCF is right. Topher was cast because he and Tobey look so much alike. Dramatically, it will look better than if the guy is a beef block. Besides, little Topher can act and will probably offer some great scenes out of costume (boy, does that sound bad!)
It does seem a waste to have more than one villain at a time. The villain is the mirror of the hero and needs to have time to develop. You cannot do this properly if they have to share the stage.
However,Raimi is one of the best, I have to believe he'll do it right.
It does seem a waste to have more than one villain at a time. The villain is the mirror of the hero and needs to have time to develop. You cannot do this properly if they have to share the stage.
However,Raimi is one of the best, I have to believe he'll do it right.
I met Topher Grace once- at the Mel's Diner on Ventura Blvd. in Sherman Oaks- and he IS nice. Way nice. He was with Anne Hathaway (Princess Diaries, among other crap) who wasn't nice at all. She was rather venomous. They didn't.. fit.
I don't know if it was a date or what- didn't ask because that would have been rude, and I didn't want to be rude to Topher. HER, on the other hand, well- I wanted to shove a stick up her cunt.
Oh, was that outloud??
I don't know if it was a date or what- didn't ask because that would have been rude, and I didn't want to be rude to Topher. HER, on the other hand, well- I wanted to shove a stick up her cunt.
Oh, was that outloud??
MCF: Topher looks so much like Tobey I was expecting Ben Reilly
Good call... thinking about it, I kinda like the idea of a Scarlet Spider storyline. That would have been interesting.
Kelly: In the Ultimates, I believe Brock is much closer to to Parker's age.
Yeah, and the Venom suit is some sort of bio-medical thing, as I understand it... it's an interesting idea. I think the Secret Wars storyline is great, but only us old-school Spider-geeks would care about it, and I don't mind if they lose it for the movie. "Old-School Spider-geeks" is a funny thing to call myself, by the way, considering that the comic was pretty old when I was born.
Nehring: It does seem a waste to have more than one villain at a time. The villain is the mirror of the hero and needs to have time to develop. You cannot do this properly if they have to share the stage.
Absolutely. That's my concern. I like MCF's idea of having Sandman more of a background character, just a criminal distraction as the Venom character develops. If they want to do two villains, that's the best idea. Keep the focus on Brock. Remember, though, that in the first film, Robbie makes a reference to some story that the paper should "get Eddie Brock on right away," (or something like that) so he's already committed (in my mind) to being a Bugle photographer and not a peer of Peter's. I realize that they just mentioned Brock as a little nod to the geeks, letting us know that they're geeks, too... but still, you know how seriously we geeks can take stuff.
I agree with you guys, too, that having Raimi direct is the best reason to hold out hope. Thanks for inspiring me with some optimism.
And, yeah, X3... dude, I'm not even worried about it. I've just accepted that it's going to suck harder than a Dyson. then again, I'm one of the few people I know who thought that X2 was only OK, so I'm not the best judge... but I do like Grammer as Hank, and I can't wait for Colossus and Juggernaut, so I'll see it even thought I don't expect it to be good.
Rhodester: Oh, was that outloud??
Yes, and it's difficult to read what I'm typing with all this coffee all over my monitor. WOW! I've never heard you say anything like that before. Given your usual, laid-back style, I can only conclude that Hathaway must be the singular mega-nazi b!^ch hell-hound of all time. Maybe SHE'D be the best choice for the next villain! Somehow, it doesn't surprise me, though. I don't know why, but I guess I subconsciously assumed she'd be a real hag.
Good call... thinking about it, I kinda like the idea of a Scarlet Spider storyline. That would have been interesting.
Kelly: In the Ultimates, I believe Brock is much closer to to Parker's age.
Yeah, and the Venom suit is some sort of bio-medical thing, as I understand it... it's an interesting idea. I think the Secret Wars storyline is great, but only us old-school Spider-geeks would care about it, and I don't mind if they lose it for the movie. "Old-School Spider-geeks" is a funny thing to call myself, by the way, considering that the comic was pretty old when I was born.
Nehring: It does seem a waste to have more than one villain at a time. The villain is the mirror of the hero and needs to have time to develop. You cannot do this properly if they have to share the stage.
Absolutely. That's my concern. I like MCF's idea of having Sandman more of a background character, just a criminal distraction as the Venom character develops. If they want to do two villains, that's the best idea. Keep the focus on Brock. Remember, though, that in the first film, Robbie makes a reference to some story that the paper should "get Eddie Brock on right away," (or something like that) so he's already committed (in my mind) to being a Bugle photographer and not a peer of Peter's. I realize that they just mentioned Brock as a little nod to the geeks, letting us know that they're geeks, too... but still, you know how seriously we geeks can take stuff.
I agree with you guys, too, that having Raimi direct is the best reason to hold out hope. Thanks for inspiring me with some optimism.
And, yeah, X3... dude, I'm not even worried about it. I've just accepted that it's going to suck harder than a Dyson. then again, I'm one of the few people I know who thought that X2 was only OK, so I'm not the best judge... but I do like Grammer as Hank, and I can't wait for Colossus and Juggernaut, so I'll see it even thought I don't expect it to be good.
Rhodester: Oh, was that outloud??
Yes, and it's difficult to read what I'm typing with all this coffee all over my monitor. WOW! I've never heard you say anything like that before. Given your usual, laid-back style, I can only conclude that Hathaway must be the singular mega-nazi b!^ch hell-hound of all time. Maybe SHE'D be the best choice for the next villain! Somehow, it doesn't surprise me, though. I don't know why, but I guess I subconsciously assumed she'd be a real hag.
I agree, but worrying about it won't do any good. Raimi loves comics too, so he may surprise you.
Speaking of Spidey... have you ever riden the Spiderman ride in Islands of Adventure, in Orlando, FL? The 3-D is so good, you feel like you've met Spiderman & a bunch of assorted villains. I loved it. IMO it's better than the Hulk ride.
Speaking of Spidey... have you ever riden the Spiderman ride in Islands of Adventure, in Orlando, FL? The 3-D is so good, you feel like you've met Spiderman & a bunch of assorted villains. I loved it. IMO it's better than the Hulk ride.
Topher has MUCH more range than the campy "That '70s Show" shows. His career might eventually flop out because he has that child-actor look to him, but he's done some good little character bits on TV and in film... He's quite awesome in "Traffic," for instance. And since he does look a lot like Peter Parker, I can see where it could work to cast him as the host of the Venom symbiote, since it will create a classic film/literature doppleganger scenario. Since Venom is the evil flipside of Spiderman, it makes some visual sense to have the secret identities of the two super-types seem like similiar equals.
By-the-by, although I liked some of the Ultimate books I picked up, it drives me crazy that Marvel is keeping both "regular" and "ultimate" continuities running at the same time. It makes it way to hard to follow, especially when you throw in the slightly skewed continuity of the movies as well. Either have a "Crisis on Infinite Earths" and remake the entire universe, or don't. Marvel's current method is just confusing. And losing the death of Gwen Stacey is a bloody shame (for the Ultimate books and the film), since that results in core part of Peter Parker's personality (and, thus, the motivations of Spiderman).
Outside of the Joss Whedon-written X-men stories (truly: astonishing), I avoid most Marvel like the plague these days. They might have some cool things going on here and there, but I don't want to get weighed down by all the crossovers and mixed up storylines....
And long live the original 12-issue "Secret Wars" series that introduced the black spidey suit that lead to Venom. That was a very fun series, as was the entire black-suit Spiderman run and the initial Venom stories. Venom turned intoa really anoying and overblown character in later years, but so have many Marvel characters....
Sandman, however, would be great in a Spidey movie, since he's a funny-but-dangerous villain htat enventually turns into a good guy of sorts, although he's always lapsing back into crime. He's not a murderer or madman, just a good ol' lunkhead robber with a strange super power. I think Thomas Haden Church will be perfect in this role, and my guess would be that Sandman will be fighting beside Spidey against Venom by the end of the movie. But I could be wrong.
Anyway, I thought Raimi just kept getting better when he was making "Evil Dead" sequels, so maybe the same will hold true with Spidey.
By-the-by, although I liked some of the Ultimate books I picked up, it drives me crazy that Marvel is keeping both "regular" and "ultimate" continuities running at the same time. It makes it way to hard to follow, especially when you throw in the slightly skewed continuity of the movies as well. Either have a "Crisis on Infinite Earths" and remake the entire universe, or don't. Marvel's current method is just confusing. And losing the death of Gwen Stacey is a bloody shame (for the Ultimate books and the film), since that results in core part of Peter Parker's personality (and, thus, the motivations of Spiderman).
Outside of the Joss Whedon-written X-men stories (truly: astonishing), I avoid most Marvel like the plague these days. They might have some cool things going on here and there, but I don't want to get weighed down by all the crossovers and mixed up storylines....
And long live the original 12-issue "Secret Wars" series that introduced the black spidey suit that lead to Venom. That was a very fun series, as was the entire black-suit Spiderman run and the initial Venom stories. Venom turned intoa really anoying and overblown character in later years, but so have many Marvel characters....
Sandman, however, would be great in a Spidey movie, since he's a funny-but-dangerous villain htat enventually turns into a good guy of sorts, although he's always lapsing back into crime. He's not a murderer or madman, just a good ol' lunkhead robber with a strange super power. I think Thomas Haden Church will be perfect in this role, and my guess would be that Sandman will be fighting beside Spidey against Venom by the end of the movie. But I could be wrong.
Anyway, I thought Raimi just kept getting better when he was making "Evil Dead" sequels, so maybe the same will hold true with Spidey.
Look, I'm a huge Spidey fan and I'm 13 years old.I never knew much about Venom or Carnage but I knew they were strong and dangerous. When it came to favorite bad guys, I always praised the Green Goblin, Venom, and Carnage but Vemom and Goblin have been getting pretty F*cked up lately. If you own the Ultimate Spiderman game you know what I mean. Green goblin is no different than the Hulk except he throws fire balls. He doesn't even have his glider. That all makes me even more curious as to how a ultimate version of Hob-Goblin would look. Would he be a yellow Hulk guy? Venom also has a beter story when it came being an alien thing. In ultimate spiderman(like that other guy said)he was a just medical experiment gone wrong. Carnage is Venoms son, kind of. In Ultimate Spiderman Peter Parker had parts of the Venom suit in him and that bald guy injected the serum into him. Peter turned into Carnage by accident and Venom had that little showdown with Carnage (which was completely awsome by the way). As you all know Gwen Stacy fell off the brigde and died at the hands of the Green Goblin. In Ultimate Spiderman she had the life sucked out of her slow and painfully by Carnage. Personaly I still love both series no matter how different the get (and the get really, really different). As for Spiderman 3 I have no worries whatsoever. That guys movies never let me down. They can put 5 bad guys in there for all I care, but just so their lives don't all get wasted at the end I just want some bad guys to survive to fight another day. If they all die, that would be a big waste. A very big waste.
Hey its Shadow again. I did a google search on spiderman 3. I got to see spideys Symbliote costume and i also saw the Harry Osborn green goblin. He is no longer green. He has a gold and blue goblin costume with glowing red eyes. His glider is silver and black. I also saw how vemon looks in the Spiderman 3 movie. I don't know how but they managed to turn Topher Grace into Vemon. They pulled it off somehow. Also, I have reason to believe that there will be three super villains: Venom, Haryy Osborn Green Goblin, and The Sandman.
Ps. you should all try a google search on Spiderman 3. CHECK ALL THE PIX PAGES. DON'T FORGET.
Ps. you should all try a google search on Spiderman 3. CHECK ALL THE PIX PAGES. DON'T FORGET.
Hey, Guess who. I saw the Spider-man 3 trailer. It was amazing. It was so good I think spider-man 3 will be the greatest marvel movie ever made (at least until spiderman 4 is made). I suggest that you all do a search on Spiderman three trailers.
Also, I was right. The movie has green goblin, and sandman in it. I'm not sure about venom though. He wasn't in the trailer.
If you don't want to know what happens with Gwen and MJ, don't read this paragraph. Peter ends up dating Gwen and Harry gets back with MJ. By the way don't put your trust in this paragraph because how much can you learn from a trailer, right?
PS. I think Harry dies.
Also, I was right. The movie has green goblin, and sandman in it. I'm not sure about venom though. He wasn't in the trailer.
If you don't want to know what happens with Gwen and MJ, don't read this paragraph. Peter ends up dating Gwen and Harry gets back with MJ. By the way don't put your trust in this paragraph because how much can you learn from a trailer, right?
PS. I think Harry dies.
It seems that Topher Grace was brilliant in his role as Eddie Brock (Venom). It's really a great improvement on his acting skills!
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